Oppo I need Opinions (Not Car Related)

"64Mali" (ctaaffe64) 08/14/2015 at 15:40 • Filed to: ParentLock

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This might be a slightly controversial post, it is not meant to be an attack on anyone, beliefs, etc. I came across this article today and shared it with a group of Friends.

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Immediately one of them said hew as boycotting Target because they are removing the gender labels and that this is allowing for the minority to rule the majority.

For me as a father of a young girl I see no reason to have a distinction of “Boy Toys” and “Girl Toys” as they are just toys. Currently I spend most of my toy shopping for my daughter in the “Boy Toy” section because she loves; Cars, Balls, Musical instruments. All of which are only available in the “Boy Toy” Isle. (Note she is 1 1/2 years old).

The argument then stemmed to that leading to choices means all the kids will grow up confused.

So OPPO what is your take? Am I crazy for letting my daughter play with what she likes not by what a store says is a “Girl Toy”? Is Target right for removing the labels and calling them “Toys”? Will Jenny stay with Mark?

Sam > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:43

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My only problem is that literally anything and everything is a political landmine nowadays. And not a normal landmine. It’s like a political nuclear Bouncing Betty.

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:43

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Gender categories don’t really make sense because enjoying cars or cooking has nothing to do with gender

ttyymmnn > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:45

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I firmly believe that removing labels from toys will have zero effect on who chooses to buy them. If anything, it may help break gender barriers agains women in science, etc if scientific and building toys are no longer classified as things for boys only. But I do believe that there are toys that will intrinsically interest one gender or the other, and the kids will pick these out on their own. (I’ve got three boys, 9, 9 and 12.) I see this as nothing more than a tempest in a teapot, and the only ones you’ll hear complaining are the ones with fervent beliefs one way or the other, while the majority of open-minded people in the middle will say, “Meh.”

64Mali > Sam 08/14/2015 at 15:47

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Tell me about it. I thought the guys responses were funny, and it blew up into a huge argument about pandering the minority and gender norms.

Leon711 > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:48

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Boycotting Target would be stupid, what’s wrong with being inclusive? Perhaps I’m just a EuroCommie but y’all muffin farmers need to calm down (not you of course).

ChooChooMotherFudger > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:48

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I am curious, how does removing labels let someone rule someone else?

64Mali > ttyymmnn 08/14/2015 at 15:48

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Kind of my feeling. Kids will pick out what they want, and let them don’t need to say oh you can’t have this it says its for girls.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:49

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Nope. Your friend is full of BS. Let your kid play with what they want to.

If Target had just quietly removed the gender labels and just replaced everything with “Toys” no one would care. (Well, there would still be those people, but they would stay in their dark, lonely corners of the internet cowering in fear they might get infected with actual knowledge, but we would at least have been spared the viral outrage over this nonsense.)

But because Target had to make a big publicity stunt about this, we all have to deal with the raging morons upset about nothing.

The guy who posted those “helpful” comments is a hero.

Also, I am not a parent. GI Joes are still dolls. Girls can like science. Kids should be allowed to be kids.

ttyymmnn > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:49

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I didn’t express myself very well, but that’s pretty much what I meant.

64Mali > ChooChooMotherFudger 08/14/2015 at 15:49

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Care to elaborate? I could be missing your question its been a wicked long day.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:50

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Not a parent but I don't think you're crazy. I also believe that Target is right for removing labels.

Luc - The Acadian Oppo > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:51

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I think you are perfectly inline and fuck anyone that says anything otherwise.

I’m sick of people taking offense to everything that changes (for the better) because they are too bigoted and ignorant in their own mind.

The way I see it is : If you honestly think that letting your daughter play with ninja turtles is gonna turn her into a lesbian that you are seriously fucked in the head(not talking about you personally just a general example).

I’m a white male, wife is filipino, two best friends are black and the other is from Hong Kong.

People need to start to accept the fact the white is not the only race that ever existed and that it’s ok to be gay/lesbian,ect. The only people that get offended by any of these changes tend to be either homophobic and/or racist.

I’ve heard every excuse to say otherwise and why we should not allow these changes and it’s seriously infuriating to hear what these people believe of how the world should be.

Sweet Trav > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:51

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Yes. Target is in the right. Removing gender labels on toys and letting your kids play with what they enjoy is a good thing. It will help develop different skill sets and varying skill sets for boys and girls. I mean let’s face it “action figures” are just dolls with a fancy name. I think that particularly men want to hold on gender roles for toys because men (in general) are trying to hold on to a brand of masculinity that isn’t relevant anymore. Dirty Harry, James Bond, and John Wayne are outdated caricatures of what it means to be a man today. But that’s just my opinion. I’m glad that my parents let me branch out with a lot of things I did as a child. You never met a 7 year old boy who liked to bake as Much as I did. (Still do) My dad never found it odd or wrong that I enjoyed baking, playing house, or playing dolls with my cousins as a kid, and I’m a better man for it.

ChooChooMotherFudger > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:52

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You said one of your friends was boycotting target because removing “Boy” and “girl” labels “is allowing for the minority to rule the majority.”

I assume you don’t agree with them, but did they explain how their logic (if they explained it) worked?

nermal > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:53

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If you make your parenting decisions based on how a large department store organizes and labels toys, you’re doing it wrong.

Make decisions for yourself, and teach your kids to make their own decisions, including that there are consequences to them.

64Mali > ChooChooMotherFudger 08/14/2015 at 15:54

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Short version of his logic (It was hard to understand). Having the labels of “Boys Toys” “Girls Toys” makes it easier for the 90% of the population to find the toys they are looking for and that only a small percent of the population has a problem with toys being grouped by gender. And that Target removing these labels is giving into the minority population.

He also then went on to explain that by giving to many choices to people including different gendered toys its explaining why there are so many; Gay, Bi, Pan, Trans people as the choices are confusing them into not knowing.

Also I’m pretty sure he is not a friend any more.

64Mali > Sweet Trav 08/14/2015 at 15:56

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Teaching any kid to cook/bake is the best thing in the world.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 15:57

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I don’t have a problem with boys playing with ‘girls’ toys and vice versa, kids are going to do what they’re going to do. If my (imminent) son wants to play with an Easy Bake Oven, he’s gonna play with an Easy Bake Oven. Actually, my only issue with not separating them is one of convenience: if I’m looking for dolls, I go to girls toys...if I want Transformers, boys toys. But I suppose you can keep things sorted how they are without actually calling them ‘boys’ or ‘girls’ toys.

Basically, I hate both the people who are offended at the current separation of ‘boys’ and ‘girls’ toys AND the people who are offended at the idea of no longer calling them ‘boys’ or ‘girls’ toys.

64Mali > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 08/14/2015 at 16:00

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What gets me is my local target, the “Boys Toys” isle is all the cars, sports toys, Nerf, etc. The “Girls Toys” is all Pink, and one of the toys is a broom, a pretty pink broom.

But I don’t care if the isle stay as it and just call them toys. Or label them, cars, frilly stuff, etc.

TheRealBicycleBuck > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:00

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Let her play with what she wants. There is biology at play with toy preferences. All of this “gender neutral” brouhaha will go away once everyone realizes that kids will be kids, whether boy or girl. I leave you with a couple of quotes from an article about Sweden’s attempts to be gender neutral.

“Twenty years ago, Hasbro, a major American toy manufacturing company, tested a playhouse it hoped to market to both boys and girls. It soon emerged that girls and boys did not interact with the structure in the same way. The girls dressed the dolls, kissed them, and played house. The boys catapulted the toy baby carriage from the roof. A Hasbro manager came up with a novel explanation: “Boys and girls are different.””

...

“Biology appears to play a role. Several animal studies have shown that hormonal manipulation can reverse sex-typed behavior. When researchers exposed female rhesus monkeys to male hormones prenatally, these females later displayed male-like levels of rough-and-tumble play. Similar results are found in human beings. Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) is a genetic condition that results when the female fetus is subjected to unusually large quantities of male hormones—adrenal androgens. Girls with CAH tend to prefer trucks, cars, and construction sets over dolls and play tea sets. As psychologist Doreen Kimura reported in Scientific American , “These findings suggest that these preferences were actually altered in some way by the early hormonal environment.” They also cast doubt on the view that gender-specific play is primarily shaped by socialization.”

...

“The Swedes are treating gender-conforming children the way we once treated gender-variant children. Formerly called “tomboy girls” and “sissy boys” in the medical literature, these kids are persistently attracted to the toys of the opposite sex. They will often remain fixated on the “wrong” toys despite relentless, often cruel pressure from parents, doctors, and peers. Their total immersion in sex-stereotyped culture—a non-stop Toys”R”Us indoctrination—seems to have little effect on their passion for the toys of the opposite sex. There was a time when a boy who displayed a persistent aversion to trucks and rough play and a fixation on frilly dolls or princess paraphernalia would have been considered a candidate for behavior modification therapy. Today, most experts encourage tolerance, understanding, and acceptance: just leave him alone and let him play as he wants. ”

ChooChooMotherFudger > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:01

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Also I’m pretty sure he is not a friend any more.

Haha, well said. Thanks

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > ChooChooMotherFudger 08/14/2015 at 16:02

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It changes the status quo form one where white, hetero, generally Christian/religious, men are the societal default, to one where we include as many people as possible.

The uproar over Target’s policy stems from a larger one where we are finally acknowledging LBQT, minorities, etc as actual people. Those who have held the status quo are not happy about losing their ‘power’ and there are many, many vocal people complaining about it. They have all been brainwashed deluded preyed-upon into thinking their mindset is and should be how everyone else thinks and acts. They aren’t happy everyone else has left them behind.

Read up on ‘Movement Conservatism.’ People are making money by keeping the old status quo intact.

Sorry, that was probably more than you asked for.

/rant/

cazzyodo > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:03

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I worked in a toy store in high school less than 10 years ago and we had a “boy aisle” and a “girl aisle.” They weren’t labeled that way but that’s what they were generally called by all.

I called them by the products within: car/Lego aisle and doll/Barbie aisle. For baby and toddler toys, they were all thrown together under the Playskool, Fisher Price, whatever sections. The only gender division was between frickin’ Dora and Diego. Parents directed what aisle their kids went to. The best things I saw was when the kids did what they want.

Girl wants a Barbie? Sure.
Girl wanted a Hot Wheel? Sure.
On intrepid boy wanted a pink stuffed animal. “You sure?” Nodded with enthusiasm. “Ok.”

Very rarely did parents get in the way once their kids voiced what they liked. THAT made me happy.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn 08/14/2015 at 16:05

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Actually it’s proven that as as a general rule those divisions exist for a reason. Take them away and provide no indoctrination whatsoever, 90% of boys will still go for “boys toys” and 90% of girls for “girls toys”. Labels make no difference. Revese the labels, the same kids would go for the same stuff.

64Mali > cazzyodo 08/14/2015 at 16:05

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And that makes perfect sense to me, you don’t have to call it out and I love when kids get what toy they want. My wife taught pre-school and had many a boy dress up as a princess/ fairy for dramatic play. And these were the same boys who would be playing soccer later in the day.

64Mali > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:07

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Thank you all for the input. !

ChooChooMotherFudger > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/14/2015 at 16:07

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Little bit more, but everyone needs to rant now and then

Future next gen S2000 owner > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:07

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This goes along with most of the other comments but kids can’t hardly read for shit. Seems irrelevant but when I was a kid I knew where the toys where located. I didn’t read any signs. Even now I just wander the rows looking for toys when buying for me nieces and nephews. I don’t need your stupid signs for directions! Now there will be one giant toy section.

People really need to stop worrying about petty b.s. and start worrying about important things. Let kids be kids. Stop getting your panties in a bunch people!

Full disclosure: I am played with barbie dolls as a kid. I only know this through photographic proof. I also played with sticks and whatever trucks were in my sandbox. I some how managed to grow up without issues.

PowderHound > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:07

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Just let the kids play

Jcarr > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:08

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Let the kid play with what she wants. If your friend is bothered by what Target does, he is free to not spend his money there.

HammerheadFistpunch > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:08

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This is generally refered to as the nature vs nurture argument. There are staunch camps on both sides of the isle and its crazy to think that either model of childhood development has it completely right. I feel that a child comes here with a personality all their own and they cultivate that personality through experience. I also feel that there are key moments in that childs life where decisions that are made help them form their notion of the world around them. The best thing a child can learn, in my opinion, is that there is more than one way people view the world. That having been said, Children learn values, and morals by observing others. That is to say that because they have way to form validations on moral choices, they have to observe and adopt what they see into their own “programing” where it forms that opinion. TLDR: its both nurture and nature in my opinion. My main concern wouldn’t be so much about gender confusion through interaction with gender biased sources as it would be that they are taught to understand what gender is and why its an important component in a persons makeup.

cazzyodo > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:10

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NP. There were lots of instances where parents would steer kids in another direction but when all was said and done, at the age you are talking about it was all the same. Only later at kindergarten ages parents start to “intervene”.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:11

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Yeah, I mean it’ll be able to navigate it regardless of what they’re calling it. I’m just not going to be an activist for it either way, since that’s not what I do.

Fun story: I took my niece Allie and nephew Andy(at the time they were like 5 and 7 respectively) to Toys R Us, and gave ‘em each $20 to spend on toys. I asked my niece what she wanted. She walked around a bit and picked up a pair of oversized boxing gloves. Then she yelled ‘I want punching gloves so I can punch Andy in the crotch!’. We did not buy the boxing gloves.

Now that I think about it, that was actually the least awful part of the trip. The most awful part was when she eventually settled on a pair of bouncy balls about the size of softballs, then pranced around the video game section saying “I have boobs!”.

64Mali > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 08/14/2015 at 16:12

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Well now everyone is looking at me funny I fully cracked up reading that.

BigBlock440 > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:12

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It will make it take a little longer finding the toys your looking for though.

for Michigan > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:13

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You know, as long as we’re not letting toddlers run around with knives or stick long, pointy things into electrical outlets, we should let kids do what interests them.

In fact, I would encourage boys to play house because I know far too few men who are useful for anything other than bringing home a paycheck and hanging with their bros. And I would encourage girls to tinker because I know far too many women who are helpless without a man to fix things when they break.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Sweet Trav 08/14/2015 at 16:13

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That’s a parent issue. The kids will go to whatever interests them, and science has shown us that the reason there are “boys toys” and “girls toys” comes down to the fact that for the most part, with no cues from anywhere but inside their own heads, boys tend to go for what’s considered boys toys and girls for girls toys. So no matter what Target does or doesn’t do, there will still be 90% “real boys” and “real girls”, 10% “tomboys” and “insert equivalent here” (real isn’t the word I want, but I can’t think of anything else and it gets the message across.

Frankly I don’t give a hang what they do.

Xyl0c41n3 > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:16

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No, you are not crazy for letting your daughter decide to choose her own interests.

Growing up, I hated dolls, wearing dresses, the color pink, toys that simulated “women’s functions” like toy kitchens, shopping carts, fashion, etc. I preferred playing with my big brother’s Lego’s, GI Joes and Transformers and tearing it up on my bicycle with him and his friends in our neighborhood and the empty fields that surrounded it.

I was told many, many times in my childhood that I wasn’t very ladylike, that I was a tomboy, and that I needed to behave more like a girl. The problem wasn’t with me, though, the problem was with everyone else because I already was behaving like a girl. Shame on them for trying to impose on me a very narrow definition of what that means.

My mom was one of those people who would tell me I wasn’t girly enough and it was something I actively railed against throughout my childhood. It helped that I’m a very opinionated, outspoken, and determined person in general, so I was never afraid to tell her to back off. Even so, her words hurt and sometimes I did wonder if I wasn’t... good enough, maybe? No child wants to hear their parent tell them they’re doing something wrong, or feel that their parents think that, you know? Don’t get me wrong, my mom is an amazing person and was a fantastic mom. I may not have been the pretty in pink princess she thought I’d be, but that never stopped her from having my back in every other way imaginable, from encouraging me to pursue my education and extracurricular activities, to fueling my curiosity for new hobbies. My mom was and has always been one of my strongest advocates and supporters, and for that, I realize I am extremely lucky.

Then there’s my dad. By all accounts, my dad wouldn’t appear to be a feminist. He leans conservative and is a minister. But he never once imposed any sort of gender limits on me. Ever. I wanted to take karate classes with my big bro? Sure! I didn’t like dolls? Ok, how about Play Dough? I wanted him to show me how to change the brakes on my car? Alright, let’s head out to the garage.

Without ever saying a word about “girl things” or “boy things,” my dad was always a quiet champion who showed me via his actions that I could do whatever I wanted and could pursue whatever interests drew my attention regardless of my gender. For him, my gender never entered the equation. He gave the same support to me and my sister that he gave to our brother.

Now I’m an adult, a woman working in a supervisory position in a male-dominated field. I love cars, getting dirty, and the color hot pink (yep, eventually I grew to love the color). I’m more comfortable in a t-shirt, jeans and cowboy boots than I am in a dress, but I’ll still rock that dress phenomenally, and my make-up game is on point. I love to cook. I cross stitch and knit. I paint. I read. I know how to weld and how to change the oil in my car. I stopped to help a stranded motorist change her flat tire a couple of months back.

Do I sound confused? Do I sound like I was harmed because my parents loved and supported me as a whole person, versus adhering to some hair-brained gender stereotype? Like I said, anytime someone tried to hold me to gender stereotypes, I rebelled against the idea anyway. I’m damned proud of being the woman I am.

Give your daughter the (age appropriate) freedom to make her own choices and pursue her passions. Maybe that’ll be dressing up in a fairy princess outfit and staging impromptu fashion shows with all her stuffed animals in your living room. Maybe that’ll mean she builds an impressive collection of Hot Wheels. Either way, she’s no less a girl and she’s no less your wonderful, amazing daughter.

64Mali > Xyl0c41n3 08/14/2015 at 16:19

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If I’m lucky my daughter grows up to be as strong as you. Shes got the stubborn down from her mother.

64Mali > for Michigan 08/14/2015 at 16:19

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Well I failed at the knives thing.. My daughter grabbed on I was using off the table once, and shes walked off with tools I’m using.

Cash Rewards > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:20

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I too have a 1.5 year old daughter, and that’s bullshit. Good for target, and good for you. My wife is beautiful, was a high school cheerleader, and has a degree in engineering. My daughter can be whatever the fuck she wants. This Verizon add is great, and relevant.

BigBlock440 > Future next gen S2000 owner 08/14/2015 at 16:24

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“People really need to stop worrying about petty b.s. and start worrying about important things. Let kids be kids. Stop getting your panties in a bunch people!”

That’s the annoying part of it. So what if there’s a “boys” and “girls” section, it’s the easiest way to organize stuff. But then you have a whole group of people loudly screaming and trying to force inconveniences on everyone else because they’re offended that some toys are painted pink. Target’s hard enough to find stuff in as it is.

Xyl0c41n3 > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:24

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Heh. I got my stubbornness from my mom, too. It’s one of the best gifts she ever gave me.

Your daughter is going to grow up to be an amazing human being in part because she has a dad like you. That you’re questioning this and trying to figure out the right thing to do — that you’re trying to figure out how to do right by her means you give a shit. That’s good! She’s already ahead of the curve because of that alone. Just keep being her dad. Keep being her champion, the rest will sort itself out.

for Michigan > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:27

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There’s only so much you can do to keep a toddler out of trouble. It’s kind of a miracle that any of us survive childhood.

deekster_caddy > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 08/14/2015 at 16:28

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Even if that’s true I would like to know why it matters where the toys are in the store. I have trouble believing it’s really 90%, but it depends on what they are calling “girls” and “boys” toys in their experiment. Packaging also makes a big difference in how they make a particular toy appeal to one gender or the other (the pictures on the box of who is playing with it, etc).

I know plenty of boys who play with cookware and have dolls, I know plenty of girls who like building things, legos and play swords and guns with lights and bleepy noises... I also know quite a few adults who princessize their girls and army-up their boys.

Xyl0c41n3 > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 08/14/2015 at 16:31

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Citation needed.

Future next gen S2000 owner > BigBlock440 08/14/2015 at 16:37

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All green toys one aisle, all blue toys another or by age or by girls/boys/family. I don’t give a damn. This can’t be the best use of our time and resources. Some peoples kids.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > deekster_caddy 08/14/2015 at 16:44

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I wasn’t attacking Target. I’m just saying, the kid has already made up their mind what they like. Like I said, science has proved as a general rule. There will of course be tomboys and (insert equivalent here). The classifications dont matter one way or another.

CaptDale - is secretly British > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:46

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My opinion....

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Xyl0c41n3 08/14/2015 at 16:47

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I’m too lazy to go digging, so here’s a link to someone who did the work for me.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/let-her-play-w…

Sweet Trav > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 08/14/2015 at 16:48

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Actually girls tend to spend more time playing with gender neutral toys.

http://www.andrews.edu/~rbailey/Chapt…

It’s a question of psychological development, and learned behavior, sex and physiological differences between girls and boys play a much smaller role.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Sweet Trav 08/14/2015 at 16:55

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My point is, taking out everthing but gender (yes, there was an experiment, too lazy to dig it up. Someone else posted some of it though), boys and girls still gravitate in different directions. There are exceptions, obviously.

In any case it hardly matters. The kid has made up their mind.

Chairman Kaga > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 16:58

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I personally think it’s fine. My 4-year old daughter plays with Disney princesses, Darth Vader, Ninja Turtles, tea sets, dump trucks, Hot Wheels, princess dress-up outfits, Lego, lightsabers, bows and arrows (suction cup), etc. She does make boys into girls by drawing eyelashes and lipstick with washable markers (all of the Ninja Turtles are now permanently girls), but in her mind there’s no reason girls can’t play with “boys toys”. And I’m fine with the store where we buy most of them not trying to prove her wrong. Because she’s not.

XJDano > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 17:12

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We bought a used kitchen play set off CL, both our kids play with it. He (2) likes to open the cabinets and put stuff in them. She (4) actually likes to pretend cook on it.

We also found him climbing on it so we had to move it away from the stairs.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > 64Mali 08/14/2015 at 17:22

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It’s Target... Did you know that they have the most affluent and best-educated customers of any big box chain in the country? It’s the only one that my GF and I go to, if possible (sometimes there is no choice).

We are very progressive on this front. In our discussions about children, we agreed that we will not perpetuate gender stereotypes. Of course, considering the diverse range of identities and orientations in our circle of friends, I don’t see why we would.